Chatlog fas 19.10.2007

<ghoulsblade> hagish, lazroc : how shall we proceed with freeartsearch ?   anyone interested in starting the main phpcake code, or should i do that ?
<ghoulsblade> haven't looked into it much yet, so i'd just start with that blog tutorial in the manual
<ghoulsblade> i'd prefer digging into making a script for   svn list , image search and  thumbnail generation though =)
<hagish> the first thing we need for cake is a db layout so we probably should write down more details on the features we want to have
<lazroc> yep .. some detailed requirements would be great
<ghoulsblade> ok, i'll mainly cope with the art search part i think,  i guess we'll have art items with unique id , a filename (not neccessarily unique) a download url for the full version (might be http or svn ) and a few other infos like author, license 
<ghoulsblade> since the tag search will probably be a very important feature, we'll need a list of possible tagnames (id,name)
<ghoulsblade> and a list of tag assignments (tagid,artid)
<ghoulsblade> i guess we'll also need a user system
<hagish> do we want to group the content into projects? are there authors? is it possible to add and tag images without project svn ...?
<ghoulsblade> hagish,  yes, probably, the download url can be used for that though
<ghoulsblade> we could add   specific assignment of "projects" in which it is used as well, but i'd not make them unique
<ghoulsblade> e.g. just an informative list like "used in x,y,z"
<ghoulsblade> we might also need a table of authors
<ghoulsblade> or better artists ?
<kaelis> hms?
<hagish> artists sounds better
<kaelis> true =)
<ghoulsblade> ok =)
<ghoulsblade> one tricky thing is associating things like different commit usernames in different projects to the same person, while keeping equal usernames from different persons apart
<bum_bot> <http://tinyurl.com/2fl4lz> (at ghoulsblade.schattenkind.net)
<ghoulsblade> (note to self : link to ugd thread is dead, i should dig that one out of the dump)
* kaelis has quit ("Reconnecting")
<hagish> we need a person list and a nick-person-project association
* kaelis has joined #freegamer
<kaelis> ARR!
<ghoulsblade> yarrrh !  do you mean things like svn-username with nick ? 
<ghoulsblade> also we have to watch out for the case that someone other than the artist commits the art to svn
<ghoulsblade> e.g. username associated with file is just a "hint" to how it could be, not a fact
<hagish> like in ohloh it should be possible to use different commit names that all refer to one person
<kaelis> yes :<
<ghoulsblade> yep, i'd differentiate per art piece also though
<ghoulsblade> usecase :   only lead artist has commit access
<hagish> yes
<ghoulsblade> some of the artfiles are in fact made by him, but others are not and he just committed them
<hagish> then we need a loose link between art, project, commiter and artist/author, ie the project link could be used to guess the license of a file
<tmass> i think that a manageable list of requested art assets wouldn't hurt, so that any artist who wants to contribute something could find a task that is interesting for himself and/or within his artistic ability, that eventually may result in making an asset satisfying the needs of developers
<tmass> hope it makes sense
<ghoulsblade> hmm that would indeed be a nice addon =)
<kaelis> indeed it would =D
<ghoulsblade> though i'd prefer to get the core working first, we could maybe expand this with things like concept sketches and notes
<tmass> like, if i feel like practicing in making bushes and trees, i could look up someone's specifications and make a model according to them
<tmass> and give it away
<ghoulsblade> we have to avoid what they call "delusions of grandeur" though and not get carried away so early
<tmass> or draw a sketch of medkit
<tmass> or texture a prop or two
<tmass> you know.. whatever is needed
<lazroc> that's indeed a nice feature, tmass. this will bring artist and developers together in a very effective way
<tmass> i hope so
<lazroc> but ghouly is right, that we should create the search engine first
<lazroc> simply to look up what's there
<ghoulsblade> i'll write a sort of summary of this chat in the wiki later
<tmass> i'm just playing with ideas
<lazroc> that's good sir
<ghoulsblade> i'm  more of a programmer, so i can't imagine this very well, tmass : what kind of specs do you want/need to make something ?
<ghoulsblade> on the one hand there should be enough to get a rough idea, on the other hand there shouldn't be too much limitation
<tmass> hmmm..
<ghoulsblade> hard for me to tell the right mix =)
<tmass> the limitations won't be too harsh most of the time
<tmass> i know that many beginning game artists struggle with lack of direction
<ghoulsblade> ah ok, so as many directions as possible, spiced with the "about" word like "about 1000 polys" would be good ?
<lazroc> actually i wouldn't reduce this to visual art only
<ghoulsblade> yep, music and audio also
<tmass> there are too many possibile ways in getting things done, and limiting choises may come in handy
<tmass> in=of*
<kaelis> ghoulsblade: I'd think a general idea of what's needed + sort of some scope for creativity
<ghoulsblade> no idea how to handle the "game design"  kind of art though, i think thats rather project specific
<kaelis> (the scope for creativity would be by having a general idea, detailed... but.. not so there's only one way to fufil the request.)
<kaelis> but, yes, the "about" thing would be nice.
<tmass> i'm pondering about a non-intrusive way of formalizing art specs
<ghoulsblade> hmm ok, then many specs are good, in  the sense of  "guidelines" , not as "limitations"
<kaelis> yes =)
<ghoulsblade> they are not binding, and give a good starting point
<ghoulsblade> makes sense =)
<kaelis> yup, sounds great to me =)
<ghoulsblade> ok,  how about concept sketches ?  i've never had much contact with them
<ghoulsblade> i've seen them used in  vegastrike somehow, and kinda got the impression they are a pretty standard way of art-creation
<tmass> possibly the easiest one
<kaelis> concept sketches are good, yes
<kaelis> and, yes, they are
<lazroc> absolutely
<ghoulsblade> i think there might often be 3 or more people involved in creating an art piece
* kaelis noddles
<ghoulsblade> model :   spec, concept-sketch, modeller, texture, anim
<ghoulsblade> or better "roles" not people
<kaelis> in the free gaming world, that's less common, most artists sort of have to deal with doing it themselves
* kaelis noddles
<ghoulsblade> yep, as in sfz  =)   though i tried to make sketches i'm not really good at drawing, and my digicam is a lousy scanner
<lazroc> they're also a good inspiration for own work
<kaelis> hehe, no worries, it wasn't much of a problem, i got some ideas from it, though =D
<tmass> i have this idea of filters, that could be applied to the main task list, thus narrowing the selection to the most relevant entries for a given artist
<ghoulsblade> so if we later add an "art request" feature, we'd have to think about those i guess
* kaelis noddles
<tmass> in the end, there is a need of a classification
<hagish> im tired and i'll go to sleep ... bye and a good night
<ghoulsblade> tmass : i don't quite understand what you mean by filter, do you think a tagging system could handle this ?  e.g. artrequest hill-ogre for project xrpg would have the tags "monster","humanoid","fantasy" ?
<ghoulsblade> gn8 hagish =)
* hagish has left #freegamer ("Ex-Chat")
<tmass> also, eash entry could consist of sub-tasks, like concept / model / texture / animation, so that different artists could contribute at least something
<lazroc> IMO good concept sketch is always the basement of good art
<ghoulsblade> yep, that's what i meant by "roles"
<kaelis> lazroc: not always, though =P
<lazroc> maybe not in modern art
<tmass> ghoulsblade, nah, more like model/prop, model/character, model/creature, model/vehicle, model/1stpersonweapon and the like
<ghoulsblade> kaelis did some nice models for sfz without sketches =)
<kaelis> lazroc: well, no, i meant not always =P
<kaelis> thanks ghouly =D
<lazroc> some artists of course can visualize their vision only with the inner eye
<tmass> there is also need of real world objects, that don't require much concept art
<tmass> but rather reference photos
<tmass> or blueprints
<ghoulsblade> also, not every project has people to make concept sketches
<tmass> yes
<lazroc> unfortunately not
<tmass> the concepts would be a part of a full model request
<lazroc> the other way around, many artists have no clue how to work with graphics software
<ghoulsblade> actually, i could also imagine requests for sketches
<tmass> yes
<tmass> you can only ask for a sketch and not a model and the rest
<lazroc> and it's alway good to have reference art
<lazroc> this will educate yourself as artist
<lazroc> or give you inspiration
<ghoulsblade> no wonder, graphics software can be rather unintuitive at times
<tmass> if such uber task list existed, i could probably lure some concepts artists there
<ghoulsblade> might be a while tmass =)
<tmass> who spend time on training/personal projects
<tmass> and wouldn't mind doing something required by others
<ghoulsblade> but yep, i think the project itself could have a nice positive impact on the freegamedev scene
<tmass> sure
<tmass> many people are afraid of obligations connected with participation in projects
<tmass> but one-time well defined tasks are different deal
<ghoulsblade> i think it would be the best if we'd make the code for the project itself opensource ("gpl3 or later"?) , who knows it might even be useful for other purposes
<kaelis> ghoulsblade: sounds good to me =D
<tmass> opensource is rarely a bad thing
<ghoulsblade> hmm interesting point tmass, i didn't think about that =)
<lazroc> yeah .. it would be great if oloho sources are available
<ghoulsblade> (afraid of joining that is)
<tmass> yep
<tmass> people may occasionally have free time or creative mood
<ghoulsblade> about ohloh : i read in their forums that they plan to release the source sometime soon (end of year ?)
<tmass> and check out such task list
<ghoulsblade> don't know if it's officially decided though
<lazroc> maybe writing a mail
<ghoulsblade> about the tasklist : rss support would be good i think
<tmass> it would also provide help in building artist's portfolios
<ghoulsblade> or email notifications
<lazroc> good idea
<ghoulsblade> e.g. people could subscribe to new requests if they'd like
<tmass> yes
<lazroc> that's great .. just to follow the career of an artists
<ghoulsblade> hmm, getting kinda long, tmass, lazroc, kaelis : do you mind if i paste the irc log directly as well ?
<tmass> nope
<tmass> i hope my English is not too bad
<ghoulsblade> it's fine =)
<lazroc> save it as a file
<ghoulsblade> i do, but i'd also like to post it publicly on the project page
<ghoulsblade> i find it very interesting so far =)
<kaelis> ghoulsblade: i don't mind at all =)
<lazroc> ah okay .. i am fine with this
<ghoulsblade> ok =) thx
<kaelis> tmass: your enlish is great.
<tmass> ö
<ghoulsblade> ok, any ideas how we could encourage the use of free licenses in that "art request" thing ?
<ghoulsblade> add options for "accepted" or "desired" licenses to the request ?
<kaelis> I've got no idea on that one, sorry =/
<kaelis> possibly, yeah
<tmass> i think that the entity making a request could specify how they would like to use the asset
<lazroc> hopefully this is not to annoying for an artist to accept an appointment for free art
<tmass> project exclusive or throw it into public domain
<ghoulsblade> i could imagine adding a few checkboxes for the most common licenses when making the request, e.g. if the requester doesn't want non-commercial licenses he'd not check them
<lazroc> i always have the impression that the free culture isn't wide spread among artists
<kaelis> it isn't, as far as I know
<ghoulsblade> this would be a good way to gently encourage it without forcing it
<kaelis> I've had artist friends who.. say I'm making a huge mistake, by doing stuff for the Free Gaming community
<kaelis> (and contributing under Free licenses) >.<
<ghoulsblade> e.g. a list of  "desired licenses" that the requester wants or is willing to accept, and the  the artists can choose to release under one or multiple of them
<lazroc> i am also aware of these people
<tmass> i imagine this to be a sort of consensual contract
<ghoulsblade> i can also understand to some degree if an artist wants to grand permission to use "per project"
<tmass> yep
<lazroc> i think that's to complicated
<tmass> project exclusive art
<tmass> you are helping one project
<tmass> at a time
<lazroc> the multiple license decision
<kaelis> I'm finding project exclusive art... a problem, but, i'll just shut up, I guess
<ghoulsblade> that's also "ok" for our system i think, i don't want to force people
<ghoulsblade> i think shutting out such people will do more harm than good
<kaelis> true, you do have a point
<ghoulsblade> if they get to work with a few os project they might become more open-minded
<tmass> i think that not permitting to use the animated model of a game's main character in other projects is understandable
<kaelis> hms.. good point
<kaelis> tmass: well, no.
<ghoulsblade> and if our system makes it easy for people to ask the artist like "hey, cool thing, can we use it for our project as well ?" i think it might be answered with yes often
<tmass> the author has the right to decide
<kaelis> tmass: because.. if its a Free/Libre game, most people will pretty much expect the art content to Free as well =P
<ghoulsblade> might even encourage releasing under a free license if many people ask this way  =)
<kaelis> hms, true
<tmass> i'm not against the free/libre thing
<lazroc> i'd simply make a request of the needed art, and under which licenses it will be published ... the has to accept, or the option to contact the purchaser
<tmass> i'm merely considering the possibilities
<kaelis> there's an example of this, "Planeshift", which.. most people have large issues with, 1) for art licensing, and the claim that they support open source ideals totally, etc)
<kaelis> and.. 2) for the attitude of the devs/community
<kaelis> the Free Software Ecosystem.. isn't simple
<ghoulsblade> as i've heard the planeshift artists have to surrender their copyright to the planeshift project, so i consider it  non-free
<kaelis> there's a lot of people with fairly.. set views on things, around it, too
<kaelis> ghoulsblade: yeah, exactly
<ghoulsblade> the code is free (gpl) afaik, but the whole project is not
<kaelis> planeshift is definitely only Free in the case of the engine-code.. because it had to be
<ghoulsblade> there's peragu tempus (or so) because of that
<kaelis> the rpg-ruleset isn't free, or gpl, either
<tmass> i think that a gurantee of non-commercial use is pretty important
<kaelis> and also non-free, I'm afraid
<tmass> isn't it what gpl is all about
<kaelis> because "commerial use" can come into some things that.. are very much important to the free software ecopsystem
<kaelis> *ecosystem
<kaelis> no =P
<lazroc> gpl ist not alone
<kaelis> gpl isn't about non-commerical
<tmass> it's about protection
<kaelis> gpl is about non-proprietry
<lazroc> there are dozen other open source licenses
<kaelis> that too
<kaelis> and.. CC-BY-NC/CC-BY-SA-NC is non-free
<ghoulsblade> yep . the "non-commercial" clause is non free, and often has undesirable side effects : ads are considered commercial for example
<kaelis> simply because Free games often get distributed as part of linux distributions, or, so on
<kaelis> (which is a GoodThing, in the case of linux distributions)
<ghoulsblade> the freegamearts repos used to have a few ads to finance themselves , until they moved to tuxfamily
<ghoulsblade> they couldn't accept -nc licenses back then
<tmass> anyway, the rights of artists should be protected, and if the commercial use is intended content should be re-licensed on according terms
<kaelis> tmass: this is what the gpl is for, or cc-by-sa
<kaelis> since, if they want to use it they *have* to use it under a free license
<ghoulsblade> sure, i'd also only encourage options for free licenses, not force them with the system
<ghoulsblade> a gentle encouragement is much more powerful than force here i think =)
<kaelis> they can't say "Well, we don't want you to use, distribute, or modify, you can't." with cc-by-sa or gpl, they simply can't stop it
<lazroc> actually i don't see a problem with different licensed art than the source code has
<kaelis> ( "they" meaning the commerical users )
<lazroc> so it all should fit more to the needs of an artist
<kaelis> well, as long as it /doesn't/ end up with a lot of Free software projects with non-free art content, I'm ok
<ghoulsblade> hmm i guess we went a little offtopic here, it's been fun, but i'd like to finish things up here as i have to got to sleep soon
<kaelis> if it /does/ then, we're doing more harm than good.
<lazroc> we should only support approved licenses for our engine
<ghoulsblade> lazroc : what part of freeartsearch would you like to work on ? are you experienced enough with php programming to work on core stuff, or would you prefer visuals / html layouts etc at first ?
<tmass> consider the example of texture library, that is licensed for free to use in non-commercial projects and otherwise for commercial ones
<tmass> like some programming libraries
<lazroc> well, haven't written code in php for a long time, since i switched to ruby. you're probably more into php now, so i could work an layouting, etc
<ghoulsblade> ok, i suck at layouting, i prefer logic to visuals, so i'd appreciate help with that =)
<lazroc> of courese I'll read and study the core code
<kaelis> tmass: I could live with lgpl, or.. say.. gpl, or cc-by or cc-by-sa.. and I can't think of any more decent licenses
<lazroc> i only hate programming
<lazroc> gui programming
<lazroc> lol
<ghoulsblade> i personally would like best to work on the tricky  analsis and spidering stuff, e.g. analyzing svn repos of projects and scanning sites like freegamearts and virtual worlds for collecting infos and links, and generating previews
* kaelis noddles
<ghoulsblade> so i'd prefer if you or hagish would write the core
<kaelis> i think this is a good idea, yes
<lazroc> let's make a decision when hag is back
<ghoulsblade> i can help too, but i'd encourage someone else taking the lead on that one =)
<ghoulsblade> ok, good idea =)
<ghoulsblade> hmm btw, isn't there a time-switch soon ? e.g. summer/wintertime ?
<ghoulsblade> don't know the word to search fo
<ghoulsblade> r
<kaelis> in a couple of months, here =)
<lazroc> don't know when
<lazroc> lucky you
<kaelis> it'll... be summer.
<lazroc> it's really getting cold here
<kaelis> now, the real question if they bother with dst this year
<kaelis> its getting too damn hot, here
<lazroc> haven't experienced too hot summer yet
<kaelis> lucky you =P
<lazroc> :)
<kaelis> 45 degrees celsius is... hell. but, that's nothing compared to 49/50 :<
<lazroc> indeed, this doesn't sounds too enjoyable
<tmass> ghoulsblade, excuse my noobish-ness, but which site were you referring to, when you asked about posting the chat log?
<ghoulsblade> this one : http://ghoulsblade.schattenkind.net/wiki/index.php/FreeArtSearch
<bum_bot> <http://tinyurl.com/2fl4lz> (at ghoulsblade.schattenkind.net)
<ghoulsblade> we use it to organize the freegameart project so far
<tmass> i must admit that i don't pay a lot of attention to this channel
<tmass> i wandered here seeing sciboy doing so
<ghoulsblade> e.g. a few notes on what we want to do, who will take part, a funky diagram about database design (ooh, cool, where'd that come from ?) , 
<tmass> nice..
<ghoulsblade> and links to places where free art can be found to give an initial load of stuff for our search
<kaelis> ghoulsblade: you aware of my ebonrai.com/gpl'dart repo of my stuff?
<kaelis> (still lacking lots of things, but, still
<kaelis> )
<kaelis> errr..
<kaelis> http://ebonrai.com/gplart
<kaelis> iirc.
<ghoulsblade> the freeartsearch project isn't anything officially related to freegamer, we just hang out here and sorta misused the irc channel for planning now , glad you joined us =)
<ghoulsblade> kaelis, no i'm not,  thx =D
<kaelis> these all have the relevant license imbedded
<ghoulsblade> excellent
<kaelis> along with descriptions of what the "source code" and the "object code" is
<kaelis> *embedded
<ghoulsblade> hmm ? i see .blend files, where is it embedded ?
<kaelis> in the .blends ;)
<ghoulsblade> ah cool, didn't know that was possible
<kaelis> yeah, i'd forgotten all about it, until recently =P
<ghoulsblade> i hope i can find some way to extract such info automatically in case other people use that as well
<kaelis> I think there is a way to do it =)
<kaelis> in any case, you'll need to generate previews, too
<ghoulsblade> hmm if you remember how embedding the info works, you'd do me a big favour if you'd write it down on our wiki page
<kaelis> sure, I can =)
<kaelis> its really, really simple =)
<ghoulsblade> e.g. here :   http://ghoulsblade.schattenkind.net/wiki/index.php?title=BlenderMetadata&action=edit
<bum_bot> <http://tinyurl.com/29zajn> (at ghoulsblade.schattenkind.net)
<lazroc> what do you think about user ratings for art, artists?
<ghoulsblade> hmm probably good in the long run
<ghoulsblade> i'd only make it for registered users though
<ghoulsblade> or anonymous ?
<ghoulsblade> hmm many people searching might not register
<ghoulsblade> would be good if it would be possible anonymous
<ghoulsblade> with 24h ip block or similar
<lazroc> difficult question ... actually i don't have a clue how this should be best implemented
<lazroc> the idea just came up
<ghoulsblade> i don't think there's much danger in misuse for that
<ghoulsblade> we could differentiate  anonymous and logged in ratings
<ghoulsblade> just have to display it clearly =)  e.g. with 1-5 stars or so like ohloh
<lazroc> maybe remove anonymous ratings after a certain time
<ghoulsblade> i'd make the ratings for art, not for people though
<lazroc> that's okay
<ghoulsblade> heh, we might even copy the cudo system from ohloh later =)
<ghoulsblade> kinda like the social networking like idea behind it
<lazroc> and some sort of commit monitoring would be cool, to see what's recently submitted
<ghoulsblade> yep, rss,   list of newest additions... and watchlist config stuff when registered (mail on new)
<ghoulsblade> anyway, none of these is essential for the core i think
<ghoulsblade> we should first fokus on getting the core running, e.g. indexing svns (like openarena) , generating previews, and making a search for filename would be the first steps i think
<ghoulsblade> next would be tagging
<lazroc> sounds reasonable
<ghoulsblade> and  indexing freegamearts and virtual worlds wiki
<ghoulsblade> (maybe later  worldforge and a few of the texture-repositories from my linklist, but those two above should be enough for getting started)
<kaelis> ghoulsblade: its not so much "metadata"
<kaelis> sorry, was afk for a bit
<ghoulsblade> kaelis : no prob, what would you call it  ?  licensing info  ?
<kaelis> its.. well.. the "Text editor" window =P
<kaelis> that's really all it is =P
<ghoulsblade> that is called metadata i think, you can also add that to .gif
<kaelis> well.. no =P
<ghoulsblade> maybe also png
<kaelis> its.. got its own text editor in blender
<ghoulsblade> hmm maybe the term metadata is too broad
<ghoulsblade> "notes" ? comment ?
<kaelis> as in.. its just like gedit =P
<kaelis> comments/notes are good, yeah
<ghoulsblade> ok, blender comment then ?
<kaelis> it could be any text data, really =P
<kaelis> but, its most often used for comments/notes
<kaelis> sure =)
<kaelis> wait, blender notes?
<ghoulsblade> hmm ?
<ghoulsblade> what now ? notes or comment =P
* kaelis is calling it notes =P
<ghoulsblade> don't know if / in name is possible =)
<ghoulsblade> ok =)
* ghoulsblade is getting sleepy....
<kaelis> ninight!
<ghoulsblade> ok, please post in http://ghoulsblade.schattenkind.net/wiki/index.php?title=BlenderNotes&action=edit  then
<bum_bot> <http://tinyurl.com/2gjcgg> (at ghoulsblade.schattenkind.net)
<ghoulsblade> i'm off to bed now, gn8 =)
<lazroc> n8